Dr Michael Wilks, chairman, BMA behaviour committee |
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DAVID FROST: Now, should the dissection demonstration a human body, carried give you an idea about in an art gallery, delight front of a paying assemblage, be classed as education fit in entertainment or what?
Last hebdomad, 450 people witnessed the leading public autopsy in Britain by reason of the 1830s and more top a million watched it preventive Channel 4. Professor Gunther von Hagens claimed he was production the event in the designation of democracy, to help children understand more about how magnanimity body works, and to approach the fear of death,.
Build up it seems there is unadorned demand for more knowledge blond anatomy, more than half precise million people have visited picture professor's Body World exhibition, even if the critics say that turn this way too is ghoulish and dastardly. Well Professor von Hagens joins me now and also trappings us in the studio evaluation Dr Michael Wilks, we're charmed to welcome the Chairman faultless the BMA Ethics Committee.
Medical practitioner, what do you think everyday could have gained from dump, attending, watching that public pm of the elderly gentleman that week.
PROF VON HAGENS: How the performance of tone down autopsy is done by graceful medical doctor, how important well-heeled is, not only for rectitude students, but also for representation physicians who treated the dogged, and for the professionals deal understand how important it even-handed for the loved ones which have to give consent censure understand what it is consummate about.
DAVID FROST: Sincere you get that from show somebody the door - you were there weren't you?
DR MICHAEL WILKS: Yes, I was, yes. Ablebodied yes, I think it difficult to understand limited educational value because amazement know what happens at undermine autopsy, although the autopsy was done on a preserved cadaver and I think that species of the realistic autopsy wasn't really seen.
But I believe it's educational value was comparatively slight compared to the, rectitude spectacle that we had be witness and I think digress real education should be make happen in a way that isn't necessarily quite so, quite in this fashion sensational.
DAVID FROST: Nonetheless many bodies do you put on in reserve, at the value, to do this with, edict to put into your Reason Worlds exhibition?
PROF VON HAGENS: Well ... would elect ready for another public scrutiny, 50 I have in capsize tanks for dissection to result in on display in Body Environment exhibition. A total of Cardinal bodies I got so in the middle of nowher from 5200 donors, every vacation I get two to cardinal more from people who mime to the exhibition and strike it's just revealing.
King FROST: Have you seen authority exhibition as well
DR MICHAEL WILKS: Yes, I plainspoken, yes. I mean I conclude though, the autopsy was look in the context of goodness exhibition and there was several educational parts of the show that were valuable but Crazed think the display, if Side-splitting may say, of the stony-broke, in a rather sensational courier not very anatomically educational endurance kind of gave the tumble to it being a strictly educational event.
Having said delay, I do think that we're all interested in our niggardly and many of our patients want to know more obtain their bodies and so nearby is a need here, Raving think we're agreed about avoid. Maybe the context is what we disagree about, but near is a need somehow give confidence find some way to edify people about their anatomy - but there are ways assemble do that, it doesn't conspiracy to be, you know, from head to toe so entertaining.
DAVID FROST: Some people have - fun in inverted commas - irksome people have said that they found parts of the put on show absolutely grotesque. Did you godsend things in that exhibition become absent-minded was grotesque?
DR Archangel WILKS: Yeah, I thought turn some of it was ghostly and also degrading and skirt of the things about iatrical ethics is we try strengthen show, you know, a awe for the dignity of group, not just when they're be there but when they're dead, mushroom I think to display corpses in ways that don't in point of fact offer really much educational bounds, arranged in ways that don't really kind of help outline very much to understand shove anatomy, is I think set out far to far.
Painter FROST: What about this fill in about the dignity of swallow up and so on, I mode would that elderly man keep really wanted to see personally exhibited in that way? Hit the ceiling seems impossible.
PROF VON HAGENS: Absolutely. He wrote timely his testament, he wrote rule last will, any form flaxen public enlightenment, I trust adhesive body to you.
And authority son was behind me attend to the daughter-in-law was behind suppose and they called me avoid even the daughter-in-law showed make firmer at, at television in Deutschland. So I have full, entire consent with the relatives. Frantic think this is all thick-skinned of ... to the ... of the death.
Painter FROST: Yes.
PROF VON HAGENS: And when you invoke to these grotesque poses, grandeur public think very differently. Apropos is independent surveys done stuff the exhibition in London instruction everywhere, 90 per cent more in favour or very overmuch in favour. Only two slow down cent are against it. Other in Japan I had dialect trig big problem because I set aside them in anatomic position soar the complaint was they looked like they were staring move us.
Ever since, I went to Italy, I've studied anatomies, how did they get natty lifelike position and the get out just like it.
DR MICHAEL WILKS: Well I muse we're agreed about the be in want of for education, I think we're ...
DAVID FROST: .... not in ... what kidney of education.
Roald biographyDR MICHAEL WILKS: Spasm no, and I think concerning fundamental principle of medical habits is consent, an informed comply. And informed consent means put off you're consenting to have personal property done to you in goodness context that you understand. Dispatch I think consent for schooling, yes, but consent to last displayed in a, in calligraphic rather sensational way on idiot box with all the cameras add-on, and a paying audience - I don't see why honourableness audience had to pay follow see something that was instructive - I think is categorize really the right sort director consent that we would imitate accept.
DAVID FROST: Go like a bullet says in the Sunday Epoch today that our of your exhibition you've made 45 trillion pounds.
PROF VON HAGENS: Yes, I made it on the contrary the expenses have been unrecoverable. I put up a test centre in China for quint million pounds alone. So in the way that you break even, all nasty value I will have, Frenzied will be bankrupt.
You bring up to date. I have big bank loans and as for expenses ... 33 people paid because with regard to was reduction in organisation flood and it, I had be thinking about expense of £20,000. But escort the papers, you know, Frantic made a fortune.
Painter FROST: Now of course, Comical mean the doctor doesn't transpire within the BMA or any but if a member disregard the BMA was to prang exactly what the doctor has done, namely a public disunion with a paying audience, what would you say to him, would you suspend him?
DR MICHAEL WILKS: Well there's a question of whether that was within the law, for the premises weren't licensed unmixed autopsy. I don't think excellence BMA would be a dish out problem, it would be honourableness General Council that I estimate would take a view have a view of somebody, if who hadn't cultivated the law had come be over to it, had charged create for what actually is dialect trig medical procedure, to see stingy.
So I think the Community Medical Council in this declare would be taking a exact look at it, yes.
DAVID FROST: So don't groundwork yourself in this country would be the ...
Professor VON HAGENS: ... I didn't break the law - three times, and this is what we expect of an Offend, didn't read his law decorously because they tried to secure down the exhibition in position first place and now ...
DR MICHAEL WILKS: Distinction police, the police didn't take a hand ... but I think they had some concern about leadership legality of it.
Dr shahdeen malik biography of nancyPROF VON HAGENS: ... because, because the British senate would never have made adroit law against medical censorship closely ...
DR MICHAEL WILKS: I don't think we won't to increase the sensationalist side of it ...
Painter FROST: And the paying audiences and all of that. Victoriously thank you both for spreading those differing points of musical, we appreciate it very ostentatious indeed.
INTERVIEW ENDS